Sir John Hegarty interviewed by Michael Weinzettl of Lüzters Archive on advertising, creativity and inspiration. Sir John is an active member of the Berlin School Faculty recently lecturing on the theme of "Irreverence."
Interview courtesy of Lützers Archive
I look for enthusiasm
In June of 2007, John Hegarty, Chairman and Worldwide Creative Director of Bartle Bogle Hegarty, became the first advertis-ing creative ever to be knighted. Sir John started his career in 1967 as a junior art director at Benton & Bowles in London, and co-founded the hugely successful and influential Bartle Bogle Hegarty in 1982. Michael Weinzettl recently had a chance to chat with Sir John, a man who has become the very epitome of the modern advertising creative, about some of the changes and the constants that have marked a forty-year career.
L.A.: So, Sir John, the last time we interviewed you was 16 years ago...
John Hegarty: Oh gosh, I wonder if I said things... (laughs)
L.A.: Well, one thing you said at the time was that you couldn’t imagine BBH being anywhere else but in London. Now, in addition to London, there are BBH offices in New York, Tokyo, São Paulo, Singapore and Shanghai.
John Hegarty: There you go! (laughs) Well, I think what I was saying was that we wouldn’t be anywhere else in Europe but in London and we had bought the European concept, you know, of the European Union, that Europe was one place. So if we were already in London, why would we want to have an office elsewhere? In the same way that we didn’t have an office in Glasgow or Belfast.
L.A.: How would you say advertising has changed in those intervening sixteen years?
John Hegarty: The first thing I always say to people when they ask me that question is globalization. Of course technology would come in, and that fantastic digital revolution, but in fact the biggest change is globalization. If I look at, say, 25 years ago, about 85 percent of my briefs would be for a UK company or a UK piece of advertising, while today I would say it’s quite the other way around: about 85 percent of my briefs are for a global company or have a global dimension to them. Obviously, what’s happened with the digital revolution – what we can do now, how we can talk to people – is fantastic. But, in a way, I tend to think that it all changed a bit – but not that much! The principles with which I am creating are virtually exactly the same. But then we always believed in talking to the consumer, engaging with the consumer. That it wasn’t about repetition and boring them into listening to, or watching or reading whatever we wanted to say. We always believed that engagement was the best strategy. And of course now, when the consumer has greater ability to switch you off, engagement has become ever more necessary.
L.A.: I read somewhere that you are still a champion of the thirty-second ad.
John Hegarty: Here at BBH it’s the sixty-second ad! (laughs) Well, I still am! I think in life it isn’t either/or. One thing doesn’t die and another thing replace it. It’s a big mistake we make to think that the rise of digital technology will be the demise of other media such as television. Television continues to be a really powerful media, unbelievably powerful! And it still has the power to change, it still has the power to communicate. And, most importantly, it is about “broadcasting,” not “narrow-
casting.” I would say one of the big successes over the last three or four years is Sony, the Sony Bravia. Where is that being executed? Television! Yes, they have been able to do things with their campaign digitally that they couldn’t have done before but, essentially, it’s a television campaign. It’s been spearheaded by the power of television. And I think that kind of thing will just go on. I don’t see that changing. I think the skill for advertising is to understand how to use television with the new technology that’s out there, and to realize that the medium has to change to answer the needs of the viewer. They want to be entertained, and if you don’t do that they will switch you off.
L.A.: It is still, as you once put it with regard to your TV work, about finding the “dramatic moment”...
John Hegarty: Yes, and generalizing it and executing it in some way or another. And, funnily enough, as media fragments, the power of the big idea has become ever more important. Because brands need this big center around which all of the work they now do gets linked together. Otherwise, you get a completely disparate communication program which will be wasted. So the disciplines that we employed 20 years ago are actually, in a funny way, ever more necessary now – in fact more necessary now than they were 20 years ago.
L.A.: Do you think the purposes of the individual media have changed?
John Hegarty: Well, yes, there are differences that occur. I would say the media polarizes more. I’ve always said that television should be about creating emotion but, now, television becomes much more about entertainment, much more emotional as a media, much more geared towards engaging the viewer, so the internet can then develop an individual dialogue with the consumer that builds on the emotional engagement you’ve created on TV. But the function of broadcast media is to introduce the brand, to make it available to the public, so that when that individual conversation takes place you’re much more prepared to have it. But one without the other doesn’t work, so what we have to do is to link all these things together.
L.A.: How has the consumer changed with all this going on?
John Hegarty: The consumer today is a harder consumer to reach, just physically – simply because of the amount of messages that are out there. The consumer has become far more fickle, far more demanding. So one constantly has got to be on one’s toes, making sure you’re engaging him in a positive, proactive way. And, you know, building a relationship with the consumer has always been about trust but that trust now can very easily be destroyed by a bit of cynical marketing, a bit of devious or dubious marketing. You look at what happened to Cadbury’s here in the UK when they were selling a chocolate bar that had traces of salmonella in it. They are a very famous brand that’s been built in the UK for over 150 years, and one decision has undermined the future of that brand in a very serious way. It will take them a very long time to rebuild that trust with the consumer.
L.A.: But isn’t that a case where advertising can’t do much?
John Hegarty: Well, it is, but it is all part of the communication program, and a brand has got to realize that, now, it has a public face, and that public face has got to be
sustained over everything that it does. You can’t just go and put it aside and say, well, that was done over here and over there we do this. They are all linked. I would say, coming back to your question about what’s changed, I think the walls have all come down. There are no walls between something you do here and something you do over there. Everything is now in the public eye very rapidly, and brands have to understand the nature of that and the fact that everything they do can be linked up. Just last night on the news I was watching this thing about GAP, the fact that some of their clothes are made in sweatshops in India that employ children, and now they’ve got this dramatic problem. I’m sure that GAP are doing whatever they can to make sure that this kind of thing doesn’t happen but, somehow, this has happened. So what do they do now to correct this problem? Because a brand now gets judged on many, many different fronts by this demanding consumer. What do you do to make your
product? Do you design it properly? Is it the right price? Are you making it ethically? Have you reduced your carbon footprint? It’s become very complicated. You know, years ago no one thought about this. But now it’s all part of a brand’s persona, a brand’s image, and there is crossover be-tween everything now. So when I see a commercial for GAP clothing tonight, what am I going to say? It’s a big problem. So you’re looking at two brands there which have been seriously impacted by events that – you can argue with Cadbury’s – were in their control but somehow they let it go out of their control, and GAP, where it’s probably just a genuine error, they didn’t know. But they will have to work hard now to correct that. So it’s a complicated world, hugely complicated. And demanding. You can’t walk away from it and say, I have nothing to do with that. You’re out there, you’re part of it. You’re either part of the solution or part of the problem.
L.A.: Back in 1991, you said in the course of the interview that your generation was the first that really WANTED to work in advertising on the creative side. Before that, it had not been such a sought-after career choice, to be an advertising creative. Then, as a result of advertising men like yourself, advertising for a decade or so really did become a very glamorous and desirable profession. Yet when I listen to some creative directors talk nowadays, it seems that, in that respect, advertising has come full circle again. Advertising may no longer be the business the really talented young people will want to go into. Have you noticed that too?
John Hegarty: There is, of course, the view that, 20 years ago, advertising was a very exciting profession to be in, whereas today we must ask ourselves if we are getting as many talented people as we need. I don’t think we are. But I still think advertising is the most incredibly exciting business to be in. I think we’ve allowed the debate about advertising to be taken over by other people. We’ve allowed ourselves to be talked into a corner. We’ve allowed people to assume, “Oh it’s all over for advertising, it’s not the business to be in any more,” instead of fighting back. And I think I blame our own media – constantly castigating what we did rather than celebrating it. We’ve lost faith a little in what we do, and we’ve got to regain that. We have to believe that what we do has, in fact, an incredible future, which I think it does. And, actually, I would say that this is the best time ever to come into this
business. It’s a business that has a phenomenal future – If we absolutely embrace that future and don’t constantly live in yesterday. I hear things like, “Did advertising have a golden age? Was there a golden age for advertising? Was it the 80s or the 70s?” I mean, that’s crap. Yes, there was a fantastic time in advertising in the 80s and the 70s. And there is gonna be a fantastic time for advertising in the noughties or the 2010s, or whatever you want to call it. This constant reflection that it’s all over, that there was growth then and there is not now… It’s changed! Of course it’s changed. Everything changes. But to sit there and go, “Oh, it’s not great, and we can’t get the people anymore...” Of course if people hear this, they’re not going to go into it. But it’s the most phenomenal business and here we are
moaning that there’s no future to what we do. You know, we are really appalling at promoting ourselves. We’re a bit like the tailor who makes wonderful suits but dresses very badly. But I really try to say to people, “Come on, we’re at the forefront of a communications revolution and we should be out there celebrating what we do, demonstrating how we can change brands.” I’ve mentioned Sony “Balls”: now you can use this as an example and say, “Look! This is what you can do!” We’re doing it for brands here at BBH. I grant you it has become harder – also one of the changes as a result of globalization. Now, I have to sell my ideas to a group of people instead of one person –and that’s harder. But we’ve got to find a way through that – just as Bill Bernbach, in the mid-1950s, carried the flag for great advertising and sold it and made people realize that this is what could work, this is how you could build brands. We’ve got to do the same again and make companies realize that “this is how to do great work.” I think one of the big problems we have is, that too many of our agencies are owned by publicly quoted companies. And their motive is profit not creativity. But that’s another story...
L.A.: Let’s talk some more about creativity and ideas and originality. You are quoted as having said – I think it was at some Cannes jury – “If we’re looking for originality, we might as well pack up and go home.”
John Hegarty: Yes, I said that. We overuse this word “originality.” We bandy it
around. I don’t know when I last saw an original idea. I prefer to use the word “fresh,” as in “a fresh interpretation.” Because I’ve seen it all. I don’t look at a strategy and say: “Well, that’s incredibly different.” But what I constantly get is a “refreshing of thought,” a “refreshing of idea.” And that’s what I think great ideas are. Right now, there’s this debate going on about Sony and the rabbits – you know, “Oh it’s taken from another idea,” etc. Yeah, it probably was but if they’ve done it in a new and fresh way, then fantastic! You know, Tarantino’s “Reservoir Dogs” was a remake of a Hong Kong movie called “City of Light.” How many people have heard about “City of Light”? Not a lot. Tarantino looked at that movie and said, “This is a fantastic film but I can make it better.” And he did. He made it famous. And that is partly what we do. Now we’re not here to plagiarize. But, of course, we’re influenced, and we’re supposed to be. That’s the purpose of being a creative individual. You have all these influences coming to you and you reinterpret them and bring them out in another way.
L.A.: After all these years, you’re still active yourself in advertising, still create campaigns yourself. How do you keep interested in this? How do you keep passionate about it?
John Hegarty: I just think it’s the most fantastic thing to do! It’s the most fantastic thing we do as human beings. Having ideas! And ideas can change the world, can change everything. Isn’t that incredible? That’s what we do! And I love it. It’s the most exciting thing to be involved in. And to be constantly doing it is wonderful. I am blessed that I can still do it – and that I am still allowed to do it. Also, it’s the most democratic thing that we do. You don’t need any special equipment, no special training. No one can stop you from doing it. You can do it anywhere. I’ll use an example: an unemployed mother sits down in a café and starts writing a book. She writes the book and calls it “Harry Potter” and she creates a global worth of billions. All she started with was a pencil, a pad, and her imagination. And that is what we do, and that is what excites me about it, and that is why I still do it.
L.A.: How do you keep the creative machine running? How do you get your inspiration? From sources outside of advertising, I assume...
John Hegarty: Yes, absolutely. The first thing I was going to say is never even read anything about advertising. So don’t read this interview, chuck this interview away! (laughs). Just stay alive! If you’re excited by life and what’s around you and other creatives, and car design and architecture and art and things like that... politics and what’s going on in the world, the prob-
lems, the opportunities and sports and what that means, and you bring all these influences into your work. And that is what keeps you alive, that keeps you alert. And the more you bring influences in, the more things you are going to have to say because you’re sort of a wonderful mixer of ideas. And, all of a sudden, one pops out you haven’t thought of before. So that keeps you interested. And if you stay interested, you will go on doing inter-
esting work. But remember: if you’re a creative person, what you do is you do things that you love. So when you do a piece of creative work, people say to me, “Do you have the consumer in mind?” Well, yeah, but that’s not it really. The main thing is that I do things that I like. I say to myself I like this, so this is what I am going to do. And if what I like doesn’t work any more, I’m out of a job. So you put yourself into the work that you’re doing. You must do that. You can’t be detached from it. You’ve got to be passionate about it. And that’s fundamentally important. As somebody once said, if you want to write a book that appeals to millions, write a book for one person. And that person is yourself.
L.A.: You yourself have won countless awards and, year after year, BBH is among the agencies that win the most awards worldwide. How do you view advertising festivals and awards? How important are they to you?
John Hegarty: I think they’re very important to showcase what is great. These are places to celebrate what we do, so I think that’s very important. The thing that I’m really dismayed at right now is the amount of cheating that is going on to win awards. In the end, you can do that, of course - you can cheat and you can pretend that this ran... I’m creating it to win an award and I’ll run it in some magazine that nobody’s ever heard of, and it therefore becomes eligible. But it isn’t furthering the cause of our industry. And it’s the purpose of awards to further the cause of our industry. And, I also remind you, there have only really been two great agencies. One was Doyle Dane Bernbach. Bill Bernbach invented modern advertis-
ing. The other was Collett Dickenson Pearce in the UK in the 60s and the 70s. What CDP did is they applied creativity to big, big brands. They didn’t run little ads for charities or do these pretend-ads that would run in some silly magazine or whatever it might take. They did ads for major brands that appeared on television. They were influencing the way people thought, they were influencing the nation. And that had a fantastic effect upon everybody else, and it changed the way people thought about advertising. It raised the population’s expectation of advertising, and that helped everybody. You know, I went to art school and originally wanted to become a painter. One of the reasons I came into advertising was that I looked at big poster sites and I went, “Wow, I could have my thought up there!” as opposed to on a canvas which – if I’m lucky – a thousand people might see. But if I put it up there, a million people will see it. That’s why I came into this business – not to do scam work and cheat and pretend that I’m doing real work. And if anything will destroy our business, it’s this cheat-
ing going on. It’s like drugs in sports. It’s subverting what we do. It gives you short-term glory but long-term failure.
L.A.: Advertising now, as can be seen in the pages of this magazine and in the award-winners in ad festivals around the world, is much more led by art direction than by words or copy. Now you and BBH were one of the main agents in the history of advertising who pushed the business into this very visual area... How do you feel about all this now?
John Hegarty: Well, we are living in a visual culture now. That’s very much the case now. However, we at BBH have always said, “When the world zigs, we zag.” Now that everybody is doing visual, I think we should be verbal...
L.A.: Like long-copy ads?
John Hegarty: Well, we are doing that for British Airways. We did these long copy ads and I love them. But, of course, it’s this global dimension that our advertising has to play in, and it has to cross borders. And, of course, language-based ads make it quite difficult some-
times to do that. Actually, we found a solution back then when we developed the 501 campaign for Levi’s. We told stories but we used visuals to do that, and we called it a “visual narrative.” But this is not to say that words aren’t powerful. Words are incredibly powerful. We just have to understand how to use them. Advertising has always been about the power of reduction. Reducing something down so that it opens up in your mind. And that’s the brilliance of advertising. I always say the French Revolution got it down to “Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité” – so why do we need 28 words to sell cat food?
L.A.: What’s your favorite work to have come out of BBH in the last year? Or is that a tricky question since someone you fail to mention might be offended?
John Hegarty: Well, you’re always bound to upset somebody, aren’t you? It varies, it really does, and I’m not being political... I love what we’re doing for British
Airways. It’s been given a bit of flak from certain media here but I don’t care about that. I think what we did is very interesting. I love the latest Audi A8 ad...
L.A.: It’s like an island of peace in your average commercial break...
John Hegarty: ... an island of peace and beauty, isn’t it? Beautiful use of music and craftsmanship. I like what we’re doing on Vodafone, really interesting. Nick Gill’s written the most wonderful commercial, which I love, all about “now.” I love the one called “Human” for Johnnie Walker, with the android. And the android says, I will last longer than you.
I will live longer than you but actually I can’t do what you do, which is to have a great idea... That’s wonderful. I think it’s the most intelligent commercial, great work... But, you know, it’s hard to put your finger on something. You like things for different reasons.
L.A.: This past year, you also joined the board of directors at Lensmodern Picture Library. Can you tell us a bit about the reasons for that?
John Hegarty: It goes back to my great belief that we live in a visual culture. I’ve always loved photography, always loved what’s it about. And I think there’s been a change in the way we consume photography just because of the captured image and the fact that I can search for images on the net, and I can get something that approximates to what I wanted. But the problem is that you have to search through such a lot of rubbish. Somebody once said, when he was asked “What do you read?”, “Only good things. In the hope it might rub off.” And I think that’s a great line. Spend your time looking at good things, great things, inspiring things, and if you do that it will rub off. Don’t surround yourself with rubbish. Don’t lower yourself to where you have to deal with that. And the thing I’ve always loved about Lens-
modern is that it was set up by and for photographers. Photographers who be-
lieved in the power of the image – who weren’t just in it for the business but were in it for the artistry, the inspiration that there is in the business. So it not only functions as something where you look for interesting images, it’s inspiring just to go through their pictures. It’s an inspirational tool as well as a kind of professional tool. It helps me in my profession but it also inspires me to do better and more interesting things. So I was asked by them to go on their board and be chairman of it, and help them and guide them, and I said, yes, I’d love it. I’m a frustrated photographer myself actually.
L.A.: You’ve had an exhibition of your work, right?
John Hegarty: Yes, I had one exhibition, and I will do another one as soon as I get the time. I love the fact that, often, photographers are out shooting pictures and they will see something happen and they take a picture. And it was all there, they just saw it when that inspirational image occurred. I love that, and it’s what I’m trying to tell people here at the agency. Inspiration is out there everywhere. Just go and look at it and bring it into your world. And I think that is what the best photography does. And I think Lensmodern has that ability. It’s by and for great photographers. They’ve accepted that the nature of photography now has changed, and they have this fantastic asset of a lifetime’s pictures – some of them, not all of them, obviously – that they are making available. Which is another great thing digital technology allows us to do: giving us access to all this stuff. The downside of all this is, of course, that you’re surrounded by more “stuff.” Somewhere, there’s got to be some editing because I don’t have the time to search through rubbish. And, as I said, the more rubbish you see, the more rubbish you will produce. I mean, if you want a picture of a mother and a baby from the usual sites that offer stock photos, you will get 10,000 pictures of mothers and babies. But I want a really interesting one. And you can’t put “really interesting picture of a mother and a baby” into their search engines. If you go to Lensmodern, you will get a really interesting picture. Now, it may not be the one you wanted but you will certainly look at it and go: “Well, I’ve never thought about it like that.” And I love the idea of that.
L.A.: What kind of qualities do you look for in people you work with?
John Hegarty: I look for enthusiasm. I want to be surrounded by enthusiastic people. Naturally, we all want talented people but, you know, talent isn’t the only thing. What you need is enthusiasm to pull that talent. And I’ve met lots of talented people who are very lazy. And, often, they are so lazy because they’re so clever and know they can do it. But, actually, that air of laziness permeates an organization. And I don’t want to be surrounded by that. I want to be surrounded by enthusiastic people, people who get people going. And that to me, funnily enough, is the most important thing. It’s what I always say to students when they ask me what I’m looking for in a portfolio. I’m looking for enthusiasm.
L.A.: How do you spot that?
John Hegarty: You engage with the people, you can see it in the work, what they put down. You can see it in the way they talk about their work, about themselves - you know, what they read, what they do, what they look at. All the things that help people become more stimulating. Because if they’re stimulating, they might stimulate me as well. One of the great sadnesses to me today is, you walk down these offices and, often, I will see two creative people sitting at their computers. They’re sharing an office but they’re both looking at a computer screen. What you really should be doing is turning each other on. You could be sitting next to someone who could just absolutely expand your force and your ideas, and come up with something different and fresh. That’s why we put people in rooms together – to get them to turn each other on. But, sometimes, we over-rely upon sitting at a computer screen, hoping to find something there.
L.A.: Did there use to be more enthusiasm in this business compared with today?
John Hegarty: No, I don’t think so. I think the same level’s been there throughout, and I’ve always looked for it. One thing I have learned over the years is just how
important enthusiasm is. Maybe I didn’t know that 25 or 30 years ago, when
I thought that it was just talent! But, as I said, I’ve worked with some very talented people, and these talented people were sometimes lazy. And some people also lose their enthusiasm, and they become
jaded, they become tired, they want to do something else, and they’re no longer
engaged with that. Happens to everybody. Painters talk about it, writers talk about it. It can happen in any profession where you say, I don’t understand it anymore and I’m losing my way.
L.A.: Could it be that there are some kind of time windows for creativity that close at some point when one stays in the business over a long period of time?
John Hegarty: Well, one of my theories is that creative people, in whatever industry they’re in, have about 10 years when they’re at their peak. Now, if you’re in the music business and you’re the Rolling Stones, you had 10 years when you wrote just defining music. The fortunate thing for them is they can go around the world singing those songs for the rest of their lives. They can go around singing “Jumping Jack Flash” till the cows come home, and there will be people out there who will want to see it. For us in advertising, it’s different. We have to come in every day and have a new idea. And that new idea can’t be like yesterday’s idea. I can’t create a formula. And if you try to create a formula, eventually it will die. So you’ve got to come in each day and refresh. That is very, very hard. So I don’t think we’re any different from any other creative industry in the sense that we still have ten years where we’re at the height of our creative thought and abilities. And the secret is, how do you extend that period of time, how do you stay engaged? And some people manage to do that, and others don’t. They burn out, become jaded, and they drift away. That’s why advertising is such a young industry. Somebody said to me recently that, from the people in the creative departments, only something like 5 percent are over 50. That’s a very, very small percentage. So where have all the others gone? What are they all doing? What happened to them? So that’s the big question for all of us in the creative department: How am I going to extend this 10 years, because it’s an incredibly inventive industry we’re in, and it doesn’t allow you to sit on your laurels.
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Interview of Sir John Hegarty from Lützers Archive
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